Reactive Training Systems

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

The Deadlift Blues

Craig Hirota · Member

I haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn express lately but here's my two cents from a 42 yr old, rated sportsman who's just gotten back into PL after a 15 yr layoff.

--I suspect recovery ability isn't linear and the extra motor units, particularly in the smaller ones necessary for the extra stabilization and retraction of the shoulder girdle compared to the squat, as well as the more active flexion of the erectors, make a big difference in the total recovery needs of the body after a deadlift workout.

--I agree with the idea that volume and intensity can be regulated so that recovery can be manageable.

Since I've started training again based on Sheiko volume models, Prilepin's rep chart based on intensity and with Eric and Dave's considerable help, I've noticed a huge difference in DOMS after a workout--that is to say, there is virtually none. I've been able to do the three day sheiko programs without nearly the amount of perceived breakdown that I used to feel back when I used to lift according to the PLUSA program of the month back in the late 80's and early 90's.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

If you are doing a Sheiko program, I think you and I are probably very much in agreement. It is possible to train the deadlift often.

I see what you're saying about the small amount of additional motor units required for the deadlift -- that's a good point. So, that additional induced stress would need to be managed a little closer -- no argument there. The thing that drives me batty is when people only pull once a month and expect to improve considerably, yet they wouldn't think about never squatting or benching. Strength is very, very specific to what you're training for.

Thanks for the response!

Andrew Hollenbeck · Senior Member

I feel that I recover just as well from deadlift. It's half the range of motion. Squat is a full, deep range of motion whereas deadlift is just up.

I think the reason for overtraining is that people train with high volume and high percentages combined because everyone thinks they are super man (I was there, I'm sure most of the top lifters were at some point).

In general, there's 3 styles of training that you can physically recover from without overtraining like crazy. High volume, med-lower intensity, high intensity, med-low volume, or med intensity-med volume. Yes there is exceptions, but for longevity and progress, these 3 have been proven time and time again (Sheiko, Westside, Reactive, Old School Coan-esk stuff).

And no matter what training routine you're on, without some type of deload every now and then, you will burn out. Its just the way it is.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

I'm with you, Andrew.

You reminded me of something with your list of basic training categories. I used to want to do all 3, which led me to start a training cycle, then switch to a different one about 2 weeks later. I call this my "Training ADD" period. When I started developing RTS, I came out of that because I realized I can train with each of these styles in one training cycle and do so with intelligent programming. Not only that, I can sprinkle in some High-High weeks here and there. The result was I became happy with my programming and it bacame more effective because I could package everything together in a manner that was sane. Anyway, that's part of my story....

Date: Sep 8, 2008

Mike,

I feel that simply holding the bar in your hands is the difference maker in terms of recovery between the squat and deadlift. As bipedal creatures we have developed significant capacity to "feel" and "sense" through the world around us using our hands, and they have significant nervous wiring to do so effectively. The mere act of gripping something heavy sends out all kinds of extra alerts to the brain and body that something serious is going on and that in turn leads to a greater CNS response and in turn a greater level of fatigue. Also going along with this, as the other poster mentioned, is the activation around the shoulder girdle for stabilization and such.

Just my thoughts, nothing other than anecdotal evidence and reason to back it up.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

I see where you're coming from as far as additional senses in the arms and hands, but why isn't Bench Press just as taxing? The huge load there is axial to the arms as well. And even with squat you grip heavy weight.

What about bodybuilders who can basically be gripping heavy weight (in a pulling sense) 3-4 times a week. Same with Olympic lifters, who, despite the decreased weight, have a very high force generation. The other muscles of the shoulder girdle may be slightly more active in a Deadlift, but they're still pretty darn active in a squat.

You're right, this is definately an anecdotal conversation (my comments included), but thought provoking for me at least.

Thanks everyone for the responses so far! A lot of these are reasons I hadn't thought of before. Keep 'em coming if you've got 'em!

-- Edited by Mike Tuchscherer at 13:02, 2008-09-09

Date: Sep 10, 2008

Well, I'll take a shot at this. Could it be that because the deadlift is still the least assisted movement, basically raw, (got into suits a bit in a different thread---they do help minimally in conv. DL) that recovery may take longer. With the squat, the wraps, suits, help out as we go on. The movement allows a little more compensation, where legs, back, glutes, etc. can contribute on an off day or misgroove. The DL is not as forgiving, any weak link will usually cause a miss. So maximal DL and back fatigue from squatting as well, may contribute.

May not have explained real well, I'm a little beat up myself, right now. Just a thought to throw out there.

Some good info and not a whole lot of BS on here, I enjoy reading this forum, all the best, Brian

Andrew Hollenbeck · Senior Member

Now that I remember, there's a very interesting read on Dragon Door about how people respond different to different types of training for the dead lift.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/459/

deanredzic · Veteran Member

My thoughts...and these are just thoughts.

In a squat you have an eccentric motion, followed by a concentric motion. During the eccentric motion elastic energy is stored in tendons and muscles...which I guess means that the utilisation of the stretch shortening cycles requires less work from the CNS.

The deadlift however requires a sudden utilisation of all muscle groups to initiate a concentric action. Which could possibly require More CNS stress.

How easy is it to touch and go a deadlift as opposed to let it come to a dead stop.

I know there are a few European lifters who use...I believe its called the Jeff Jet method. You start with the barbell set in a rack at waist height. You have spotters pull away the supports. You then lower the barbell (eccentric action), and deadlift it straight away. You should be able to use ~110% of your deadlift max.
All because of the stretch shortening cycle.

-- Edited by deanredzic at 04:59, 2008-09-10

deanredzic · Veteran Member

Also I would like to add that I feel the deadlift is a highly 'emotional lift"
which seems to be affected by arousal level.

I have learnt about this over the last month...and after discussion with a few 700lb plus (and one 800+) deadlifters the importance of getting hyped up.

I know now I can pull 600+ when I am super amped up in a competition situation...or just reved up, music blaring etc etc
But I can only pull 500+ in a calm situation.

So what am I trying to say? Maybe in an over trained state an athlete is quite reserved and isnt 100% in the training session.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

I can agree there -- it does seem to be affected more by arousal than other more technical lifts.

I see your point regarding an overtrained athlete, but wouldn't that be true of all lifts?

deanredzic · Veteran Member

Mike Tuchscherer wrote:

I can agree there -- it does seem to be affected more by arousal than other more technical lifts.

I see your point regarding an overtrained athlete, but wouldn't that be true of all lifts?

As for the 'over trained' athlete and the deadlift, look back to my first comment about the possible higher CNS demands of a movement with no eccentric phase. If your central nervous system is 'fatigued' then it maybe harder to recruit the muscles required in the deadlift with no pre loading (no stretch shortening cycle)

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

I don't think it's any more demanding on the CNS *because* of the concentric-only portion. The nervous system has to excite X number of muscle fibers regardless of a stretch reflex or not (which, by definition, would bypass the CNS altogether). In that sense, it seems to me that adding an eccentric phase would induce even more overall stress because 1) of increased muscle damage and 2) longer Time under Tension (the muscles still have to resist the weight during the descent.

Either way, the only thing I'm seeing here is that it's affected more by arousal levels, which I personally don't think makes it more stressful.

deanredzic · Veteran Member

Yes, this is where the argument breaks down.
The time under tension of a squat is a lot more than the Deadlift.

I ask the original question at work to several people(all highly educated in sport science)...every argument for deadlifts causing more stress than squats is flawed. Nobody had a solid answer.