Reactive Training Systems

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

failed 240kg deadlift in comp, what weakness do I have?

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

Don't think of weaknesses as muscle-related. Think of it as movement related and that can guide your training much more easily. Even if it is muscle related, training movements not muscles will take care of it anyway.

With regard to your particular weakness... I can't say. Why couldn't you lock your knees? I've never actually seen anyone who *couldn't* lock their knees at the end of the deadlift. Often people don't, but it's more out of absent-mindedness / incorrect training than anything else.

If I were you, I'd re-examine how you deadlift in training. Are you locking your knees? Did you just forget this one time in the heat of competition? If it's any of those things, you just need to emphasize the lockout on your training reps. That, with a mental cue here or there should take care of it.

If that doesn't answer it, let me know and I'll clear some things up.

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0SvEiuMUsNo

mike, check my deadlift technique on 220kg which passed, Im at 3min 58 seconds, im the dark skinned guy, in blue centurion suit,

I dont have the failed 240kg attempt on the computer but do have it recorded Ill try get it up

as you can see technique is still not mega perfect but its lot bettter than before, tell me if you can see anything which stands out

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

It's hard to see in this video, but it seems like you dip your hips pretty low, but still aren't arching your back all that much.

The way I see it, a conventional deadlifter has two options. Your starting position can be hips high / back rounded. This generates a sticking point at knee-level. Your other option is to drop your hips just enough to arch your back. This will move your sticking point to floor-level. Pick whichever one allows you to be stronger.

I hope that helps. That's really all I see for you in that video. It was pretty good! What weight class are you in?

Date: Oct 6, 2008

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply, I was in the 100kg class juniors, (20 years old) looking to go down to 90kgs for brits and hopefully world champs WPC. yeah squat and bench are good and competitive in single ply, even thought BPC is a double ply federation so will switch over soon, but still hope to do single ply comps.

Deadlift is my weak lift but I know its my fault, dont work on it, so planning to do twice a week deads lot of singles 30 singles each session on lightish weight around 130-150kg pulling everything fast, and ocassionally doing heavy reverse band works every 2 or 3 weeks.

my best dead in comp previous was 210kg which stuck for over 1 year! so if I got the 240kg passed would have been a 30kg pb which would have been good, ok this is what another powerlifting world champion friend of mine said about the deadlift, copied and pasted

Now from the video i have seen a couple of things.
Your too loose when your setting up and going up and down like bolton does before you pull try getting a lot tighter right before you pull.
Also right after you clear the bar your head sort of looks forward, at all times keep looking slightly upwards and dont change your head position.
Besides that it all looks solid, work your spinal erectors a lot for the next comp as thats what really makes a big deadlift happen.

I think theyre valid points, my dead technique is nowhere near the best, and I know I got a lot of back strength, my back is wide! you'd think Id have an awesome deadlift, but think its coming along nicely, just got to plug away and next comp looking towards a bigger deadlift,

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

Mike Im the anonymous guy who posted above obviously, forgot to log in, thanks

most of the top lifters are in the BPC which is the federation I competed in on Saturday, its what I class as the best federation in the UK, IPF affiliated fed in the UK which is BAWLA or BDFPA, not sure it keeps changing due to problems!, isnt as great as the ones in the USA, so most people in UK compete in the BPC double ply, even though I prefer single ply gear!

-- Edited by jamwithtupac at 09:26, 2008-10-06

-- Edited by jamwithtupac at 09:27, 2008-10-06

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

hmmm. Also valid points. If you want to work on spinal erectors and whatnot, I'd suggest doing it with deadlifting variations. If you're pulling weights, that's what's important.

I honestly don't like the idea of just pulling singles at 50-60% of your 1RM. You need to be doing at least 80% and you should also try pulling reps. 80% (and often 85% and 90%) will give you more the kind of training effect you're looking for. Pulling for reps will as well. If you just pull singles with a light weight, you are never really challenging your body. You might refine technique a little, but it's carryover to heavier weight will be limited. If you do that, you might need to just pull once per week for a while. If you respond well, you may want to try twice per week.

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

ok Mike another powerlifter I know has done this method, copied and pasted,

As for increasing my deadlift. I was stuck around 230 for a couple of months until I dropped the weight and concentrated on repping on 180. I worked upto 180x12 and then I pulled 240, after that it just kept going up.

I'm now plateauing around 270, so after the worlds I'll concentrate on repping 200-220 and see what that brings.

when you mean goign to 80% of my max and doing reps, do you mean do similar to the guy above? so im on lets say 220kg raw comfortbaly, 225kg so 80% is around 180kg,

1) You think I should do 1 top set of 180kg once a week repping out and trying to beat it
2) work with 180kg for 5 sets of 3 or 5 sets of 5?
3) Different method

Im pretty clueless when it comes to deadlifting you see,

I got blue green black bands also if you think you can help me out with a little training method please, or jsut some ideas.

I was planning a ME and DE deadlift method training so say deadlift twice a week, on ME day do around 180kg for 5 sets of 3, and increase weight every week

and on DE day use around 130-140kg for 15 singles,

please help:)

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

As far as a protocol, let me break it down like this...

Take the following protocols:
5 sets of 3 @ 80%
5 sets of 2 @ 85%
3 sets of 3 @ 85%
4 singles @ 90%

Take those four protocols and build them into blocks. For example, do a 3 week volume block and then a 3 week intensity block. Construct your blocks using the above protocols. Stick to 80 and 85% as your foundation. Use 90% work once or twice per intensity block, depending on how you want to construct it. Obviously the volumes reccmended here are for the average person. What would be ideal is if you could use Fatigue Percents to control your volume, at least initially. Also, read chapter 2 of my book (posted at the top of the forum). Keep in mind that if you're training at RPE's below 7, it is only useful under specific conditions for a powerlifter. RPE's of 7 are even of some limited use. Stick to RPE's of 8-9 for the bulk of your work.

Nick U · Senior Member

Quick question about deadlift, which sets do you think is more beneficial the fresh reps at your peak percentage or the ones after you drop off, which one is telling your body I have to adapt? Not trying to make a statement here, I honestly am curious what everyone thinks?

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

Good question.

Eric Talmant and his coach, Dave Bates, did an experiment. They have a tendo unit, which comes with some literature from Europe. The tendo literature says that you should terminate the set when power production for each rep falls to 90% of the peak power production for that set. What that resulted in was dropping a rep from each set (i.e. RPE's of 7's and 8's). They kept volume the same by doing more sets to compensate. So all the overall numbers were the same -- volume and intensity. But they did not gain strength. The data leads us (Dave, Eric, and I) to think that it's the last rep (the '9') that builds strength.

That's not to say that every set you do should be a 9 RPE. The 7's, 8's and so forth have specific training effects that you should be interested in as well. But most people cannot just do 7's and 8's and expect to build strength from it.

It comes back to the work you do having a specific training effect. The intensities produce a specific training effect (with the interaction of RPE's). The volumes dictate the depth of the training effect through stress. Here's an example from my training:
Deadlift w/ belt- 75-85%, 16-18 NL
635x3 @7.5 (75%. purpose was to end the warmups and start the work sets, technique enhancement, and speed strength)
675x2 @8 (80%. purpose was 1. to bridge the gap between 75% and 85% without causing too much fatigue 2. additional volume (creates stress) and 3. some strength enhancement)
715x3 @8.5 (85%. Strength-building set)
715x2 @9 (85%. Strength-building set, despite the fewer reps)
675x3 @9 (80%. Strength-building, balancing the average intensity, increasing overall volume -- I couldn't maintain x3 with 85%)
655x3 @8.5 (75%. Some strength building, balancing average intensity, increasing overall volume)

This illustrates a point I wanted to make a while ago -- you need to have a purpose for WHATEVER you do. If you don't know all the stuff right now, that's okay -- continue do do the physical work, but do the mental work too and learn about it. Here's a general guideline regarding percentages:

80% is kind of your centerpoint regarding speed-strength and strength-speed. It's the percentage where peak power is produced in most people. The further toward 100% you go, the greater the effect will be strength-speed. The further below 80% you go, the more the effect becomes speed-strength. If you pair that knowledge with knowledge of your needs as a lifter, you can determine which intensity zones you need to train in the most. If you either lift fast or not at all (i.e. you can lift 99% of your max with ease, but 101% will just bounce off an invisible wall -- not even close), then you are probably speed strength dominant (i.e. strength speed deficient). You should try to do more work in the 85%+ range. If you are speed strength DEFICIENT, then you need to do more work in the 80% and below range.

That raises another interesting point. I have met maybe one person ever who I would call speed strength deficient. Typically, grining out weights is a good thing. High level lifters tend to be able to grind out lifts to some degree or another. This next part is my theory -- The only time it becomes bad is if you grind for so long that your ATP/CP energy runs out before you complete the lift. ATP/CP can last up to 7 seconds in sprinters. I haven't read any specific research about lifters, but I will assume that since the work we do is of constant tension, you'll hit the ATP/CP limit in about 5 seconds. So if it takes you more than 5 seconds to complete (or miss) a max lift, then you might benefit from more work in the 70-80% range. I still wouldn't go much below 70% because the weight becomes too light for maximum force production.

Back to the original question... what set build strength? In some ways all of them build strength. Being a good powerlifter isn't just about being "strong". There are many facets to it that all need to be developed. I hope that makes sense to you. I know I could've just gone from A to B without hitting up XYZ first, but hopefully this will help shed additional light on programming.

Nick U · Senior Member

Excellent thank you, but I want to build on that a bit, after so many sets a double at an eight become a double at a nine, now we are talking fatigue of around 5%. Does the body get as much out of the sets at nine as it did at eight or does it get more?

I ask because my current program theorizes it does, and I think shieko says the same as well because the rpe for the heaviest set in a sheiko pyramid is always going to be greater than a typical program. Meaning that carrying a small amount of fatigue into your heavier sets may cause a greater response.

I may be way off here, thoughts?

-- Edited by Nick U at 06:31, 2008-10-08

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

cool thanks Mike, so 80% is the point where below it becomes speed work and above 80% is more pure strength work in layman terms

I always read you cant deadlift heavy and improve, probably from westside which is why I told a dislike for a lot of their theories, but seems the best way is to lift heavy,

My speed off the ground in deads are fast, its only above knees it goes slow along with technique issue, Im starting squat and deadlift training tomorrow first time since saturday comp.

squat will be raw for sets of around 180kg raw, or so, as havent squatted raw in 6 weeks now, and deadlift ill start at 180kg also with a estimated 1 rep max of 225kg raw.

deadlift 180 5 sets of 3, maybe reverse deadlift band work after too, and end session there.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

We started getting a little off-topic regarding which sets build strength, and this is a very good and important conversation, so I want to direct further questions/commentary to the "which sets build strength" thread.

But while I'm typing...
You can read in the other thread that it's the reps and RPE that determine the training effect. So, let's take the thought that sets below 80% are speed work. If we look at 75%, if you do a double with 75%, that could be considered speed-strength training because 1) the reps are short and 2) the speed was high (i.e. RPE ~7). But what would the training effect be if you took that same 75% weight and did x5 @9?

Before I answer that, I want to discuss how to determine the training effect. This is honestly as easy as determining which systems of the body are taxed the most. This will also vary from person to person, but a general knowledge can help you narrow it down. For example, if you did x5 @9, let's say the set takes 20 seconds. Well, then you know that the last couple of reps are likely to be fueled by Anaerobic glycolysis as opposed to ATP/CP for a 1RM attempt. You also know that you start to feel a burning sensation toward the end of the set. This is the accumulation of lactic acid out of the muscles, so there will be some muscle damage. And you continue for the rest of the body's systmes. The more in line it is to a 1RM attempt, the more specific the training becomes.

So what's the training effect of x5 @9? It's going to be more in the general preparation catagory for powerlifters. It will develop muscular size, some strength, some endurance. So there ya go. Hope that makes sense.

Date: Oct 22, 2008

jamwithtupac wrote:

Mike Im the anonymous guy who posted above obviously, forgot to log in, thanks

most of the top lifters are in the BPC which is the federation I competed in on Saturday, its what I class as the best federation in the UK, IPF affiliated fed in the UK which is BAWLA or BDFPA, not sure it keeps changing due to problems!, isnt as great as the ones in the USA, so most people in UK compete in the BPC double ply, even though I prefer single ply gear!

-- Edited by jamwithtupac at 09:26, 2008-10-06

-- Edited by jamwithtupac at 09:27, 2008-10-06

The above is total bull****. The IPF affiliate in the UK was always BAWLA which changed its name to BWLA a few years back. As of 1st Jan 2009 the newly formed GBPF will be the UK IPF affiliate, having been accepted by both the EPF and the IPF, the original affiliation having been amicably (!) renounced by BWLA.

The BPC used to be affiliated to both the WPC and the GPC, but a clash of personalities led to the GPC affiliation being dropped and the formation of yet another federation, called the GPCGB, which is affiliated to the GPC.

The BDFPA has never been associated with BAWLA/BWLA or the IPF.

Clear as mud?! lol!