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Mike Tuchscherer


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Which sets build strength?
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Nick U
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Quick question about deadlift, which sets do you think is more beneficial the fresh reps at your peak percentage or the ones after you drop off, which one is telling your body I have to adapt? Not trying to make a statement here, I honestly am curious what everyone thinks?

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Mike Tuchscherer
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Good question.

Eric Talmant and his coach, Dave Bates, did an experiment. They have a tendo unit, which comes with some literature from Europe. The tendo literature says that you should terminate the set when power production for each rep falls to 90% of the peak power production for that set. What that resulted in was dropping a rep from each set (i.e. RPE's of 7's and 8's). They kept volume the same by doing more sets to compensate. So all the overall numbers were the same -- volume and intensity. But they did not gain strength. The data leads us (Dave, Eric, and I) to think that it's the last rep (the '9') that builds strength.

That's not to say that every set you do should be a 9 RPE. The 7's, 8's and so forth have specific training effects that you should be interested in as well. But most people cannot just do 7's and 8's and expect to build strength from it.

It comes back to the work you do having a specific training effect. The intensities produce a specific training effect (with the interaction of RPE's). The volumes dictate the depth of the training effect through stress. Here's an example from my training:
Deadlift w/ belt- 75-85%, 16-18 NL
635x3 @7.5 (75%. purpose was to end the warmups and start the work sets, technique enhancement, and speed strength)
675x2 @8 (80%. purpose was 1. to bridge the gap between 75% and 85% without causing too much fatigue 2. additional volume (creates stress) and 3. some strength enhancement)
715x3 @8.5 (85%. Strength-building set)
715x2 @9 (85%. Strength-building set, despite the fewer reps)
675x3 @9 (80%. Strength-building, balancing the average intensity, increasing overall volume -- I couldn't maintain x3 with 85%)
655x3 @8.5 (75%. Some strength building, balancing average intensity, increasing overall volume)

This illustrates a point I wanted to make a while ago -- you need to have a purpose for WHATEVER you do. If you don't know all the stuff right now, that's okay -- continue do do the physical work, but do the mental work too and learn about it. Here's a general guideline regarding percentages:

80% is kind of your centerpoint regarding speed-strength and strength-speed. It's the percentage where peak power is produced in most people. The further toward 100% you go, the greater the effect will be strength-speed. The further below 80% you go, the more the effect becomes speed-strength. If you pair that knowledge with knowledge of your needs as a lifter, you can determine which intensity zones you need to train in the most. If you either lift fast or not at all (i.e. you can lift 99% of your max with ease, but 101% will just bounce off an invisible wall -- not even close), then you are probably speed strength dominant (i.e. strength speed deficient). You should try to do more work in the 85%+ range. If you are speed strength DEFICIENT, then you need to do more work in the 80% and below range.

That raises another interesting point. I have met maybe one person ever who I would call speed strength deficient. Typically, grining out weights is a good thing. High level lifters tend to be able to grind out lifts to some degree or another. This next part is my theory -- The only time it becomes bad is if you grind for so long that your ATP/CP energy runs out before you complete the lift. ATP/CP can last up to 7 seconds in sprinters. I haven't read any specific research about lifters, but I will assume that since the work we do is of constant tension, you'll hit the ATP/CP limit in about 5 seconds. So if it takes you more than 5 seconds to complete (or miss) a max lift, then you might benefit from more work in the 70-80% range. I still wouldn't go much below 70% because the weight becomes too light for maximum force production.

Back to the original question... what set build strength? In some ways all of them build strength. Being a good powerlifter isn't just about being "strong". There are many facets to it that all need to be developed. I hope that makes sense to you. I know I could've just gone from A to B without hitting up XYZ first, but hopefully this will help shed additional light on programming.


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Nick U


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Excellent thank you, but I want to build on that a bit, after so many sets a double at an eight become a double at a nine, now we are talking fatigue of around 5%. Does the body get as much out of the sets at nine as it did at eight or does it get more?

I ask because my current program theorizes it does, and I think shieko says the same as well because the rpe for the heaviest set in a sheiko pyramid is always going to be greater than a typical program. Meaning that carrying a small amount of fatigue into your heavier sets may cause a greater response.

I may be way off here, thoughts?


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Mike Tuchscherer


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I see what you're saying, but I think it might be irrellevent. Think of it like this...

How does your body understand the work you do? There is
the nature of the fatigue induced and
the depth of that fatigue
How does the body see it? Let's start with the nature of the fatigue induced. Your body doesn't work in percentages. It doesn't say, "oh, this is 80% of 1RM. I'll get stronger." The stressor that's imposed on the body is 1) how many reps and 2) the level of effort. This correlates to a percentage, and using percents makes it easier, but fundamentally, the body understands reps (number of contractions) and efforts (effort required to complete the contraction). Range of Motion also plays a key role, but for now let's assume that is constant. This is what determines your training effect.
Doing triples at a 9 RPE will have a different training effect than doing x20 at a 9 RPE.
Doing triples at a 7 RPE will have a different effect than doing triples at a 9 RPE.
So, if we learn as much as possible about each combination and their corresponding specific training effect, we can more efficiently and directly program training. You would then know that if you are a MS-classified lifter and you need more strength-speed, then you should program more of X type of work. Using this situation as an example, here's how I would follow this through....
1. Needs more strength speed.
2. Generally 85-90%, sometimes 95%
3. Requires 9 RPE's to develop strength-speed, but 10's are too taxing given the template
4. x3 @8-9, x2 @8-9

Now, once you get to a certain level, you'll be able to forget about step 4. You'll automatically do that when you come into your workout.

That summs it up for Nature of Fatigue Induced. Now for Depth of Fatigue. This is essentially the stress. In theory, the larger the fatigue induced, the larger the resulting adaptation, provided adequate recovery. The key here is to find the right combination of template and fatigue induction per workout that allows you to stress the body and recover from it.

So, using this thought process as a framework, let's look at the following example:
first set = 300x3 @8
last set = 300x3 @9
We know the fatigue was about 5% because there was about a 5% loss of capacity. Which set built more strength? Well, that depends on the kind of strength you're talking about, but in a powerlifting sense, probably the last set. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE FIRST SET WAS USELESS. It served as preparation for the peak set and follow-on sets. Without it, those other sets wouldn't have been possible. "Well," you say, "why not just do 300x4 @9 and get strength gain from the first set, too?" Because x4 @9 will 1) cause more fatigue, meaning the peak set might not happen anyway and 2) x4 @9 is a different training effect than x3 @8.

Another argument I can see arising from this is, "if it's the reps and effort, not the weight on the bar that matters, then why not use a SSB all the time because it's harder than a straight bar, thus requiring greater effort with less weight. I could train using less weight and stack it on when I want to max out."
Sometimes that works. It depends on your current needs as an athlete. But sometimes it doesn't work because it isn't specific enough to the type of strength you're trying to develop. Along those same lines, some may think, "if it's the reps and effort that matter, why not just do 20 minutes on the stairmaster, then lift less weight and become stronger." This, known as pre-fatiguing, adds another competing stressor to the body which is going to inhibit it's efforts in any one area due to adaptive resources being limited.

I hope this makes sense and answers your question. Let me know if you have any more.

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Mike Tuchscherer


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From the other thread....



jamwithtupac
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cool thanks Mike, so 80% is the point where below it becomes speed work and above 80% is more pure strength work in layman terms

I always read you cant deadlift heavy and improve, probably from westside which is why I told a dislike for a lot of their theories, but seems the best way is to lift heavy,

My speed off the ground in deads are fast, its only above knees it goes slow along with technique issue, Im starting squat and deadlift training tomorrow first time since saturday comp.

squat will be raw for sets of around 180kg raw, or so, as havent squatted raw in 6 weeks now, and deadlift ill start at 180kg also with a estimated 1 rep max of 225kg raw.

deadlift 180 5 sets of 3, maybe reverse deadlift band work after too, and end session there.

Mike Tuchscherer
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We started getting a little off-topic regarding which sets build strength, and this is a very good and important conversation, so I want to direct further questions/commentary to the "which sets build strength" thread.

But while I'm typing...
You can read in the other thread that it's the reps and RPE that determine the training effect. So, let's take the thought that sets below 80% are speed work. If we look at 75%, if you do a double with 75%, that could be considered speed-strength training because 1) the reps are short and 2) the speed was high (i.e. RPE ~7). But what would the training effect be if you took that same 75% weight and did x5 @9?

Before I answer that, I want to discuss how to determine the training effect. This is honestly as easy as determining which systems of the body are taxed the most. This will also vary from person to person, but a general knowledge can help you narrow it down. For example, if you did x5 @9, let's say the set takes 20 seconds. Well, then you know that the last couple of reps are likely to be fueled by Anaerobic glycolysis as opposed to ATP/CP for a 1RM attempt. You also know that you start to feel a burning sensation toward the end of the set. This is the accumulation of lactic acid out of the muscles, so there will be some muscle damage. And you continue for the rest of the body's systmes. The more in line it is to a 1RM attempt, the more specific the training becomes.

So what's the training effect of x5 @9? It's going to be more in the general preparation catagory for powerlifters. It will develop muscular size, some strength, some endurance. So there ya go. Hope that makes sense.



-- Edited by Mike Tuchscherer at 14:07, 2008-10-09

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Nick U


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I apologize for jumping the subject around, hope I didn't upset your organizational OCD too much.

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Mike Tuchscherer


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I hate you.
Not really, but...

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