Reactive Training Systems

Matt Perryman · Newbie

RE: The Deadlift Blues

Date: Sep 12, 2008

Matt Perryman wrote:
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:

I don't think it's any more demanding on the CNS *because* of the concentric-only portion. The nervous system has to excite X number of muscle fibers regardless of a stretch reflex or not (which, by definition, would bypass the CNS altogether). In that sense, it seems to me that adding an eccentric phase would induce even more overall stress because 1) of increased muscle damage and 2) longer Time under Tension (the muscles still have to resist the weight during the descent.

Either way, the only thing I'm seeing here is that it's affected more by arousal levels, which I personally don't think makes it more stressful.

Combine this point (concentric-first lift) with the fact that most people are going to have an unequipped pull that's higher than their unequipped squats, and you've probably got the answer.ÃâÃÂ ÃâÃÂ
Same rules apply to pullups and rowing when compared to the bench, and it's probably for the same reasons - a combination of lift mechanics, leverages, and absolute weights being used.

I just don't think it is more stressful than any other lift with the same motor unit recruitment.

Nervous system stress is directly related to CNS/PNS output (think voltage). The more motor units you recruit, the more output is required.

In tis sense, the weight on the bar is irrelevent. It has to do with efforts and how many motor units you recruit. If you did a front raise with a 10 pound DB, it would be easy. But try to do that with a 10 pound sledgehammer. It would be hard, if not impossible.

What happeed there? By changing the leverage, you required more motor units to be recruited, up to 100 percent of available MU's. This is effectively the same thing that happens between gear and raw, squat and deadlift. The motor unit recruitment is what the difference becomes between squat and deadlift. And frankly, there isn't much of a difference there, IMO

I couldn't sign in from this computer...
Mike Tuchscherer

Matt Perryman · Newbie

If you look at things from the angle of central drive/cortical output, it might be a bit different.

MU activation isn't the only piece of that puzzle, especially once you start looking at the motor centers in the brain (and the stuff upstream of those regions).

Suffice it to say, a combination of "psyche" or arousal (which is deeply connected with central drive et al) combined with a high output (which is probably linked more to the RFD required for a concentric start vs. a normal eccentric-first lift, more than the peak force requirement per se) and a higher absolute weight (for most folks without equipment, the DL is going to be the strongest of the big lifts) has always been my pet theory on this.

But even then there could be a number of other things going on. I've heard grip trotted out as one reason, where having a weak grip can cause a missed (or poor) lift without you even consciously realizing it, maybe due to some inhibition effect. Same could apply for core strength, too.

The CNS does some wacky things.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

That's a solid answer. Touche!

I see where you're coming from. I can even go as far as to say I see where the Deadlift could be a little more stressful than the other lifts (in theory, of course -- like the rest of the conversation!).

I like your answer and will concede that the Deadlift can be a little more stressful than the squat, but I don't buy the grip thing. Again there are too many instances where grip is trained hard and frequently. But can share this: I don't have grip issues at all, but if I'm doing a lot of volume on DL, my hands hurt. Toward the end of workouts, if my hands are really hurting, I might miss a weight that should be easy *because* my hands hurt. I just can't pull. I don't know if that's the exact inhibitory effect you're talking about, but it's a little practical experience to go with it....

I still maintain that the deadlift can and should be trained with some degree of frequency (not just once a month). I don't think anybody here was arguing otherwise, I just thought that bears restatement.

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

Let me throw this into the equation,

do you think you can deadlift say twice a week but light because olympic lifters pull 3-4 times a week probably more, so say an olympiclifter c n j 210kg, they pull probs 150kg everyday to train it so surely we can use around the percentage of the weight for our deadlift training

just doing sets of 2s or so to stimuilate the cns

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

I train the deadlift on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday every week. Friday is light, assistance type stuff, but the other two are fairly heavy. I think you have to do frequent practice in order to make dramatic improvements. The reason poeple cite for trying to only pull once a month or something ridiculous is that the DL is more taxing than other lifts. I sincerely think that if it is more taxing at all, it's only slightly. This means that if you control your volume and intensity, you should be able to deadlift at least once a week.

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

yeah agreed, Ive trained with a guy deadlifting close to 900lbs and he pulls everyweek, and heavy and says best way is to deadlift, Dont train the american westside barbell way and never deadlift as its not good

i messed around with not training it regularly and only recently after training it once a week its improved.

I find doing power cleans in the week going heavy help increase deadlift also

Im surprised you deadlift heavy on Tuesday and Thursday Mike, would of thought you gave another day rest before deadlifting heavy again, so Tuesday and Friday deadlifting, but it works for you.

-- Edited by jamwithtupac at 22:42, 2008-09-13

-- Edited by jamwithtupac at 11:41, 2008-09-14

marcus mucheck · Member

its like anything...its all about how you approach it.

seems like a lot of people dont approach powerlifting and/or its exercises as a sport.

would anyone fault a boxer for practicing his jab daily?

some weightlifters snatch/clean and jerk 5 days a week...

not enough people are approaching the lifts as skills for a sport.

why else would there be so many exercises (tools) to help only 3 lifts?

the answer is skill development!

pulls from plinthes, pull til knee, bands/chains, sumo, traditional, pulling in different shoes, pull standing on blocks...

stiff legs, straight legs, on and on and on.

also, the type of squatting compared to deadlifting should be considered.

when squatting with the bar and breaking with the knees the recovery time is shortened compared to the medium/wide stance low bar hip/back squat. (atleast for me)

recovery from the overhead squat compared to the powerlifting back squat...

as lifters it is important to understand this is a sport, and eventhough most dont have a real coach, real team, real practice...you have to police yourself and make yourself do whats needed.

thats my rant...

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

Nicely put. I preach the same thing myself. You HAVE to become a student of the sport.

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

From what I understand, basically youre saying we should train the lifts more until we understand how to do them properly.

For example, my form on deadlift isnt the best and needs improvement, so I should be deadlifting more often to practise the skill of deadlifting,

whether its light or heavy?

I agree anyway

marcus mucheck · Member

yes. i think the big thing these days is to skimp on the deadlift and automatically say-"im not built to deadlift." deadlifting is hard. heres a short story for you...

i was training at westside for about a year, and had stop doing rep work in the deadlift. all work was singles and gm's etc...i decided to start doing triples regardless of what lou said...yeah we would argue but...i added 30 pounds to my pull.

my favorite exercise for the deadlift is pulls off a 4" block. heavy triples just does it for me.

marcus mucheck · Member

sorry, i made a mistake...i believe a certain amount of work still needs to be done after youve learned how to do the lifts.

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

yeah I agree, my squat and bench are both strong, deadlift is one lift where I suffer, I made a 10kg improvement yesterday, where my lift stalled for 1 year on the same weight! and nearly had another 10kg improvement but just failed the lift due to form.

I think I need to practise deads eve week and be consistent, Im looking into reverse band deads to lift heavier weights so hopefully will help, but i agree, people should think of technique rather than heavy weights, or after a while, you'll find it difficult

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

I think reverse bands are a good exercise, but don't leave them by themselves for a long time. Continue to pull heavy from the floor, too, so you don't lose that ability and depend on bands.

jamwithtupac · Veteran Member

yeah I will do definetely, I think I read too much WSB, knowing too much can be detrimental I think, because you overanalyse,

Ive got a friend who pulls heavy from the floor everyother week, pretty much to a heavy max, then weeks in between pulls heavy rack pulls, his deadlift exploded from 200kg to 250kg in a short space of time drug free.

I would try similar however dont get on with rack pulls, so thinking reverse bands eveyr 2- 3weeks, and pulls from the ground the other times. with power cleans on another day in the week too.