Reactive Training Systems

I use a middle finger on the ring grip for my raw work and my shirted work. Its where Im most comfortable, so it makes sense to me. Also, I do some close grip stuff, but that is in an assistance capacity.

Also, Tony, Im not trying to pick on you (Im just going on a tangent), but this is something I hear a lot. I hear about a lot of guys that do all their lockout work with a close grip. I think this is a bad idea. Strength is such a specific trait that changing your grip around a little can have a significant effect on whether you can display improved strength or not. For example, I have been doing the contest lifts very consistently for a while now and they steadily improve. For a while, I also benched with doubled light bands and chains. I got pretty good at it. Then, I took it out of the exercise rotation for a while. My bench still improved. Then when I came back to that movement a number of months later, I found I was about 20-40 pounds weaker than before, yet my bench was better. That demonstrates how specific strength gains are. Just because strength is build with one stance/grip/whatever doesnt mean it will carry over to the contest lift. Which just means to make sure that you look at the specificity of the movements youre doing. The higher the specificity, the better the carryover.

That said, there are instances where you want to use a less specific movement. For example, a J.M. Press is not very specific to the bench press (comparatively speaking), but if you are training with a goal of Tricep Hypertrophy, then it may be appropriate. Regarding a close grip on the bench press, I think this makes the movement better for most hypertrophic objectives, but not necessarily neuromuscular objectives (depending on the closeness of the grip). So, its about determining whats optimal for your programming.

I guess my overall point is to keep specificity in the equation when selecting movements. Its not always appropriate to select the MOST specific movement. But specificity should definitely be considered.

Cool. I figured it was just a miscommunication -- you're a smart guy, so I knew you weren't crazy!

Thanks for the input -- I appreciate the perspective!

I am about the last guy with the knowledge to really post in here but I will give the little but of info that I can. For the past few years I have been training chest with Boards, chains and really just doing whatever I knew to add anything to my press. I was always around 365 for a double. This was at a much higher bodyweight. I started doing RTS and all of my lifts went way up, with the exception of bench. I made mild gains here and there, but nothing noteworthy. I was always benching with my middle finger on the rings. I contacted Brady Stewart (which some of you might be aware of from my log). Anyways Brady gave me a template to follow that has loads of close grip work. Reverse close grip press, paused close grip and close grip with doubled minis. I have really wide 1 board press and equipped for regular grip. I have been doing this for only 3 weeks now and have probably put 30 pounds on my raw press. Even though the close grip might not be super specific to the equipped press, I for one have got a turnover and know just from how the weight feels in my hands that this will be a direct turnover to my equipped.  I am pretty confident I can press raw what I could press shirted before, or very close to it. Like I said before though, I really am not knowledgable like the rest of you on such topics, just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

I'm not saying that Close Grip stuff won't help your bench (raw or shirted). I'm just saying that in order to be most efficient, you have to look at it as a question of good better best.

We know that Powerlifting depends on maximum strength (plus a few other things, but this is the focus for now). If we look at the two parts of this puzzle, nervous system and muscular, then we get a better picture of what/how to develop maximum strength.

We know that strength is highly specific to the task at hand. The most specific work is the actual contest movement itself. But we don't always want to be specific in training. Sometimes we want general preparation. This is where other movements come in to play. At this point it's useful for me to note that "general" and "specific" are not catagories. They are opposite ends of a sliding scale. For example, if the contest lift is a bench press, then a bench with pinky on the ring is more general than the contest movement, but more specific than a bench with thumb from smooth. Bench with thumb from smooth is more specific than flies. And so on.

The next thing that needs to be learned is HOW general movements affect the contest movement. Lets look at Bench (thumb from smooth). Typical analysis is that it has a greater tricep component, greater shoulder component, less pectoral. This is insufficient. You need to recognize that the previous analysis is true for the MUSCULAR component, but neurologically, it's not the same activation. This is also why I tell people that deadlifting off a plate is a good way to build strength off the floor AFTER you go back to the contest movement for a short period of time. The deficit pulls are general preparation that must be honed with specific training.

Back to close grip benching... if you train close grip benching and your contest bench is automatically better, then you can safely assume that you are deficient in the muscular component of your neuromuscular chain. General work -- focusing the work on the muscular component -- improved your contest lift. Once your muscular component catches up with your neurological component, then you will need a different approach.

D.J.:
I have gone over how close grip is a general preparation movement. I agree that its a good movement for that purpose. If your purpose is general preparation, then your assertion that close grip bench, conventional deadlift, and olympic squats are good choices would be correct. But whether one needs general preparation work or not is dependant on the programming model that one uses. If you use a concurrent approach, then you probably will have this in your program almost all the time. But what if you use a block approach? Probably not.

And D.J. I'm not trying to pick on you with this next part -- I see this thinking a lot. I agree that it's about finding what works for you. The Law of Individual Differences is what RTS is all about. My problem is trying new things without forthought. The better your understanding of the details of strength work, the less likely you are to just accidentally make gains by stumbling accross something that "works for you" (the thing is that usually the problem is all the times you DON'T stumble accross something that works for you).
Also, the statement of "what works for you" is often grossly misinterpreted. It's not that because I'm Mike, I need board presses and because you're D.J., you need rack lockouts. It's that we have different makeups. And if you look at the makeup, you can get a pretty good idea of what will work and what won't. If we both have good muscular force output, but just lack the efficiency to squat well, then there is a VERY good chance that the same program will work well for both of us. But if you never look at that level of detail, then you just "try something" and if it works, you associate that with your status as an "individual" and keep trying more nearly-random things. This is horribly inefficient. If you're unwilling to look into this level of detail, that's fine. I'm unwilling to learn the intricacies of the internal combustion engine, so if I have a problem with it, I'll hire a mechanic. I reccommend the same thing to athletes if they are interested in being great athletes, but don't want to learn it all themselves.

-- Edited by Mike Tuchscherer at 14:51, 2009-02-20

Sorry I was difficult to understand. Regarding Close grips building the triceps, they do in a muscular sense. That's good if that's what you need as an athlete. But if you need better neuromuscular efficiency (this is where the majority of strength comes from) then it's not the best choice.

It's really a matter of weakness correction. Weakness correction is SO much more than "weak triceps". The body is a vastly complicated machine and themore you are able to treat it that way, the more consistent your progress will be.

Regarding your overall programming... whether or not it's "good, better, or best" that you have close grips in your program the majority of the time is also a complicated question. If you're interested, let me know and I'll work on something with you.