Reactive Training Systems

MikeGagne · Senior Member

RE: Do you consider knee wraps Raw or no?

Date: May 16, 2009

This was timely...
Johnny Vasquez just posted the raw records today on PL Watch. I definitely want to break some (all) of them.

JordanLinteris · Senior Member

Only thing about the comparison with the names you gave is that there is a group of natural lifters (Mike T, James Henderson) and you have the gear users as well. You migth as well called gear using users "equipped" compared to a clean lifter. Mike T has a phenomenal deadlift raw at 821 (i think) but there is a flock of guys that can do that who use gear. Sort of takes away from clean raw lifts in a poor way. Look at Misha Kokylaev (who I am a fan of!) he pulled 860x3 raw. I have a veeeery hard time believing he is clean, since no strongman really is. Then at his last comp he pulled 910 raw, squatted over 800 with no knee wraps and I forget his bench. This just goes to show how much steroids can put a lifters individual lifts over a silver medalist at the worlds. Haha i just noticed I am rambling and way off topic, even more than this post originally drifted off. I think if you look at a 'clean' bencher, James Henderson and probably Brian Siders would top the list.

MikeGagne · Senior Member

Good point Jordan. Yeah its off topic but oh well I think we started a good discussion. I agree with you 100% again. we think alike. I got so much resepct for guys like Brian Siders, Mike Tuchscherer, James Henderson and Mark Henry who were drug free while breaking records. It goes to show you, you dont have to juice to break records. People are always looking to say negative things about powerlifting. I think the character of those individuals speaks a lot for powerlifting.

Date: May 19, 2009

JordanLinteris wrote:

Only thing about the comparison with the names you gave is that there is a group of natural lifters (Mike T, James Henderson) and you have the gear users as well. You migth as well called gear using users "equipped" compared to a clean lifter. Mike T has a phenomenal deadlift raw at 821 (i think) but there is a flock of guys that can do that who use gear. Sort of takes away from clean raw lifts in a poor way. Look at Misha Kokylaev (who I am a fan of!) he pulled 860x3 raw. I have a veeeery hard time believing he is clean, since no strongman really is. Then at his last comp he pulled 910 raw, squatted over 800 with no knee wraps and I forget his bench. This just goes to show how much steroids can put a lifters individual lifts over a silver medalist at the worlds. Haha i just noticed I am rambling and way off topic, even more than this post originally drifted off. I think if you look at a 'clean' bencher, James Henderson and probably Brian Siders would top the list.

I dont like how you say Kokylaev isnt drug free because hes a strongman, Brian Siders was a strongman too! so he isnt drug free? Dont want to get into a drugs debate but that analysis isnt exactly fair.

JordanLinteris · Senior Member

Yeah I hear ya on the sterotype I wrote. Only thing about it is that if I read correct, Brian Siders got a drug 'warning' and almost a suspension in powerlifting the same time he was doing strongman. I even went online after I read it to the steroid positive IPF page and Brian had a warning down for something unknown. You are 100% right though, strongman doesn't mean they are on gear.

Date: May 19, 2009

JordanLinteris wrote:

Yeah I hear ya on the sterotype I wrote. Only thing about it is that if I read correct, Brian Siders got a drug 'warning' and almost a suspension in powerlifting the same time he was doing strongman. I even went online after I read it to the steroid positive IPF page and Brian had a warning down for something unknown. You are 100% right though, strongman doesn't mean they are on gear.

Who knows what he took, could have been too much caffeine for all we know!

Jeff Lewis WPO superheavyweight champion competed after in the IPF single ply, dont think comparing enhanced lifts against drug free lifters makes a big deal after all Jeff Lewis still wasnt kicking everyones ass in single ply anyway if I remember.

TRON · Senior Member

Brian Siders was not penalized for injesting any substance.

He was penalized for competeing in a meet where there was also an IPF suspended lifter competeing at the same meet.

JordanLinteris · Senior Member

Yeah that goes to show how much you can trust what you read.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

Dude, Brian Siders was suspended for competing in the mountaineer cup with Ed Coan. This is common PL knowledge. Stop suggesting it was otherwise unless you have credible evidence.

JordanLinteris · Senior Member

I wasn't suggesting anything. I read on a blog a while back about it. There were two guys talking about Siders. Since the two were on the same page with the debate I took what they were saying as it might have some truth behind it. This is why i wrote 'I read' and not 'I know'.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

Ok. Sorry for coming off like a jerk, but I know Brian reasonably well (well enough to know some stuff about his history and the like). I'm as sure he's clean as I am anybody. That, and the fact that I try to give people the benefit of the doubt anyway... I just want to make sure there's as little confusion about this as possible. But I could have been a little more even keeled with what I say.

-- Edited by Mike Tuchscherer on Saturday 23rd of May 2009 09:07:36 PM

JordanLinteris · Senior Member

haha Naw don't worry about it. I assumed you knew him personally after reading your response. YOU BIG JERK. Lol.

MikeGagne · Senior Member

About the steroids thing, I give people the benefit of a doubt as well. But lets be honest there are probably more pro powerlifters on steroids than not. Same as pro bodybuilding. From everything Ive read and heard Brian Siders and Mark Henry are two of the good guys who have been life long drug free. I was upset watching "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" the movie that Louis Simmons glorified the use of steroids and said he had been using them for 30+ years and those who didnt use steroids were "maybe not cut out to be champions." I praise him for his training methods and knowledge of powerlifting but that is a horrible message to send to kids who may see that and have powerlifting aspirations.

Mike Tuchscherer · Guru

Regarding the comments you mentioned by Louie, I agree with you. I don't think Louie is right at all.

It's the same bull that I see spouted all the time with training partners. "Oh, if you don't have training partners, you'll never amount to anything". That's absolute garbage. Same thing here.

I look at it like this: I'll be a champion. I'll be a world record setter (meaning nobody has done better in the history of the sport given X criteria). And I won't have to use any banned substances to do it. I may have to work HARDER and much SMARTER than those who do use, but the end state will be the same. I won't let "drug free" keep me from the podium just like I won't let "he trains solo" keep me back either. I'll FIND a way to make it. And that's what other people can do too.

People that make comments such as the ones you mention don't bother me in what they say. It bothers me that some people might accept those words as truth rather than opinion and then never reach their potential.